Chesty Puller Posted January 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Remember people. I am not talking about religion, I am talking about the concept of god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geno Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Hey man I'll get back to this shortly. I'm high as fuck right now off pain meds cuz I just had my wisdom teeth plucked out. I read a little bit before and I can tell this will be an interesting debate. Cool, looking forward to ur reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geno Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 How can science change things when science determines what is constant and won't change? But yes you are correct with the above statement. See why trying to understand the universe is so dumb? haha How can science change things when science determines what is constant and won't change? But yes you are correct with the above statement. See why trying to understand the universe is so dumb? haha I think that mid understanding (and difference in definition) is precisely why attempting to understand the universe is so worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
`Fly Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Science is a good thing sure but science won't make us smarter or give us bigger brains, science will just explain things we never needed to know in the first place to succeed in life. Oh cool there is a law on motion! Pretty sure we know we move so...yea haha. I think the biggest thing science gave us was atom bombs, and let's just say that's not really gonna save the world. Fear of death and not having faith plays a big role in how science works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geno Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Science is a good thing sure but science won't make us smarter or give us bigger brains, science will just explain things we never needed to know in the first place to succeed in life. Oh cool there is a law on motion! Pretty sure we know we move so...yea haha. I think the biggest thing science gave us was atom bombs, and let's just say that's not really gonna save the world. Fear of death and not having faith plays a big role in how science works. Oh man, I cannot believe you just said that LOL. You are using a computer, with the Internet, in a home that is heated on an electronic grid system probably with a TV plugged in, with Sky or a different satellite channel, when you go out to do your shopping in your car, which uses petrol or electricity and use your card to check out at the till and then go home and unwrap a shrink wrapped pizza or warm up a meal in the microwave you are using scientific inventions of the last 150 years. Please never, ever say that the biggest thing science gave us was the bomb. It makes you look cauliflower. Legit reminded me of the "what have the Romans ever done for us scene" in monty python's life or Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
إيزيس سيئة Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
`Fly Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Oh man, I cannot believe you just said that LOL. You are using a computer, with the Internet, in a home that is heated on an electronic grid system probably with a TV plugged in, with Sky or a different satellite channel, when you go out to do your shopping in your car, which uses petrol or electricity and use your card to check out at the till and then go home and unwrap a shrink wrapped pizza or warm up a meal in the microwave you are using scientific inventions of the last 150 years. Please never, ever say that the biggest thing science gave us was the bomb. It makes you look cauliflower. Legit reminded me of the "what have the Romans ever done for us scene" in monty python's life or Brian Nowhere did I say that science has only destroyed humanity and given us nothing. The examples you have given are all things that have made us lazy as brown sticky stuff and not smarter or better people. The a-bomb was just the first thing that popped into my head. You seem to think that science is all you need in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geno Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Nowhere did I say that science has only destroyed humanity and given us nothing. The examples you have given are all things that have made us lazy as brown sticky stuff and not smarter or better people. The a-bomb was just the first thing that popped into my head. You seem to think that science is all you need in life. You clearly asserted that the biggest thing science had given us was the atom bomb. I think that statement shows a lack of perspective. In tandem with the enourmous leap forward in technology there has been a great increase in social awareness, equality and acceptance. Sporting achievements have also reached new hights, in this information age, as more people than ever are inspired to challenge themselves with the rapid sharing of information and records, that previously only a small minority of well connected people were privvy to. These facts seem to naturally refute your unsupported assertion that people have got lazier with technology. In fact, it seems that we are getting more innovative. As for the premature judgement on my character, I can only say that you are plain wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geno Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesty Puller Posted January 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 This pretty much underlines the difference in rhetoric between "the god side" and Atheists. Atheists havn't declared war on anything. They simply think the idea of god is degrading to the human race and over the years cost many more human lives than it has saved. "The god side", on the other hand, does declare war on people, atheists, for one are a constant target of the modern, active "warriors of god" - the jihadists, but throughout history, the people who have suffered most to the hands of these warriors, have usually been those of different faiths. As faith has proliferated less and less, violence due to faith has also gone down, from the warlike civilization of medieval western europe crusading (because the pope, a mere man, ordered them to) against the muslims in the levant, to the ethnic cleansings in Africa by the christian colonialists, and then later by the new african christians against the moorish muslims, we see that violence in certain areas has decreased in proportion to religion easing its grip. Europe is far less christian - and far less violent. Africa, however, is very religious, very intollerent against homosexuality, and right now is locked in bitter civil war, where boku haram is seeking to spread jihad over a large area. Aside from the human argument against the existance of a mighty, omniscient, all forgiving and very vengeful, sky man who favours only the people who follow him, there is the philosophical one. In short, science has gotten us to a stage where we can show things and predict phenomina exceptionally accurately using instruments and frameworks invented by man. Numbers, algebra, the LHC, are all examples of thing that humans have invented to better understand the universe we live in. Slowly questions are being answered, 100 years ago we didn't know what happened inside an atom. Now we know the inside of the atom is far more complex than we could have ever dreamed. Science pushes forward, however, to find theories that fit their data, and to simply cop out and say "oh its all the vengeful sky man, do not attempt to understand his mystery", isn't good enough. Putting our lives and this universe simply down to faith, isn't good enough. That, as an atheist, is what I have against god. I'd very much like to disagree with that, Atheists have declared war on Religion. You see it all over our media, you see it in our schools. Over the years I believe christians have learned to respect other peoples lifestyles. But when I made this topic I wasn't concerned about what was going on between the followers of the two ideologies. I couldn't give two brown sticky stuffs about Christianity or Islam or Daosim or Buddhism or whichever. I'm concerned about the denial that God exists. Throughout history every civilization all across the globe one way or another had a God. They believed in a higher being that watched over them. Each religion had it's experiences with the deity and had some sort of proof or historical reason why they believed in it. Each religion also claimed to have people that felt the presence of the being or witnessed miracles whether that be present or far back in the past. The rules that dictates each religion I believe was just a way to control the populace. To instill values into a barbaric mob but despite the fact that I believe religion itself is a sham, I still believe that there is a higher being watching over us. To have billions on top of billions on top of billions of people believing with everything they had in this far fetched idea that their god exists without even seeing him once is incredible. I felt the presence myself knowing full well that I wasn't a christian or a buddhist or a muslim or a daoist. I simply believed in a higher being and called for it's presence while I was meditating or just outside having a smoke. Sometimes I would have very vivid dreams while something talked to me. (May not be what I thought it was, dreams are weird like that). For some reason I have felt that connection either way. So when I see people declaring that god doesn't exist or makes fun of the "magical man in the sky" I find that arrogant. Remember we only live in 4 dimensions, there's only so much we know. We don't even understand our own species so how arrogant is it for us to declare that something we know nothing about is dead or never existed and that it's just a delusion. Just that statement alone offends tens of billions of humans that have lived previously. Remember how insignificant our existence is compared to the rest of the universe, we have no say in what exists out there or not. The big bang is controversial itself. There may be a larger order to things that we have no idea about so it is absolutely tomatoic that we would make such bold statements like that. I mean even Darwin himself renounced evolution on his deathbed for belief in the christian god. Now I'm still on my meds and not really able to solidify my argument without gazing off into the distance but I'm going to make one last point. Despite the greivances that religion has put us through and how violent it really is remember there are always politics behind religion. Every holy war had it's political goals. People in power are able to manipulate the masses with religion to make them do what they want. So do not turn your anger towards the religion, turn your anger on the politics behind it. Sorry if I sound cauliflower. I struggle to find the right words or arguments while medicated. But this is the best I'll be able to do at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesty Puller Posted January 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 I guess what I'm trying to say here is that despite the belief that a higher form of being exists and connects with us all throughout history and the fact that we have no idea what we're talking about I don't think it's right for us to go out on a limb and label billions upon billions of people delusional or crazy just because we don't agree with the practices of their religion. Also I don't see any religion actively withholding science from advancing further at all. I also believe that science and god should go together and shouldn't be held as two opposing forces. For all we know maybe math and science could be the language of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
`Fly Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 In the end you need faith in something to live in the world peacefully, period. If science is where your faith lies @@Geno that's cool with me, I just think it's funny that you even sound like a fucking bible thumper defending science lmfao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaze Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I bet you thought this sounded really philosophical and intelligent too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesty Puller Posted February 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I bet you thought this sounded really philosophical and intelligent too. If you're not going to contribute to this conversation then go away and "blaze" like you were born to do. All you probably do anyway LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewz Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 tldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I believe in things I can see, hear, touch, taste and smell. I can't see, hear, touch, taste and smell a 'God' as far as I know. But that doesn't mean there is no God. I simply don't know if there is a God (or more). I think I 'believe' in Science. I personally think it's to easy to say: "Yeah that's God's work". Humans want to explain the unexplainable, some try to do so via Science, and some via religion. I don't think we'll ever find the answer. We can't prove or disprove there is or isn't a God (or more). Sure, some things can and have been disproven but there are certain questions we will never be able to answer. I think religious people also believe because they want those questions answered because it somehow scares them. People want to know. And if you have to believe in God to do so, then do so ! Uncertainty and the unknown are one of our greatest enemies. Also: I don't hate religious people or God. "War on God" is a bit absurd, but I do agree that the media almost always focusses on the bad things in the world. Most of the time it focusses on religious conflicts. Which in my eyes are firmly connected with political gain. When people don't agree it doesn't mean they instantly hate God and/or religious people. No they simply state that they don't believe. Ofcourse there are atheïsts that will hate. But there are also many religious people that hate on atheïsts. The world would be a better place without extremists. Religious, or non religious. I guess you could say I'm a strong agnost. I simply don't know if theres a God and I believe nobody knows. I also love this quote (not saying I (dis)agree): "If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe." - Robert Flint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herman of foe Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 herman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesty Puller Posted February 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 I believe in things I can see, hear, touch, taste and smell. I can't see, hear, touch, taste and smell a 'God' as far as I know. But that doesn't mean there is no God. I simply don't know if there is a God (or more). I think I 'believe' in Science. I personally think it's to easy to say: "Yeah that's God's work". Humans want to explain the unexplainable, some try to do so via Science, and some via religion. I don't think we'll ever find the answer. We can't prove or disprove there is or isn't a God (or more). Sure, some things can and have been disproven but there are certain questions we will never be able to answer. I think religious people also believe because they want those questions answered because it somehow scares them. People want to know. And if you have to believe in God to do so, then do so ! Uncertainty and the unknown are one of our greatest enemies. Also: I don't hate religious people or God. "War on God" is a bit absurd, but I do agree that the media almost always focusses on the bad things in the world. Most of the time it focusses on religious conflicts. Which in my eyes are firmly connected with political gain. When people don't agree it doesn't mean they instantly hate God and/or religious people. No they simply state that they don't believe. Ofcourse there are atheïsts that will hate. But there are also many religious people that hate on atheïsts. The world would be a better place without extremists. Religious, or non religious. I guess you could say I'm a strong agnost. I simply don't know if theres a God and I believe nobody knows. I also love this quote (not saying I (dis)agree): "If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe." - Robert Flint. You bring some good points to the conversation and thank god someone else is trying to open up the conversation. Now don't get me wrong, in a way I don't like religion. To me religion was a tool back then similar to the social engineering methods we have today. Religion was used to build more easily controlled societies that would live together peacefully by instilling good morals in the populace and to easily gain public support for political endeavors. I wouldn't consider that I'm subscribed to any religion for that matter, I just believe in something bigger than us. Now from my perspective science and mathematics is something we discovered. We did not invent those things. How I can justify that is the fact that these methods we use of figuring out how things work fit perfectly within our habitat. In my eyes mathematics is universal code for how everything works. We discovered it, we didn't invent it. How the hell can we plot courses to mars with a simple fuel propelled engine, because we have mathematics and we use ours and other planets orbits in the charting process. The fact that we can predict how things work in space is simply amazing because it took us thousands of year just to figure out how cells work LOL. To me mathematics is just something we came across. We can use mathematics and science to explain how living things work, how things far out in space work (string theory and such), and we can predict how evolution works. In my eyes whoever created all of this obviously had a way to do it and we've come across a very small method of how everything happened. I'm not one of those tomatos who just thinks god created everything with a simple words as is said in the bible (75% of things said in the bible is full of brown sticky stuff) Now moving on to the bible. Christians and muslims all have their "holy books" and claim them to be written by some higher being through people which I find is complete bullbrown sticky stuff. Bibles and "holy words of god" were guidelines for these believers to follow in order to create harmonious societies written by PEOPLE, not god. These books have an astounding amount of wisdom though, and I do not consider them to be obsolete. There's a lot of wisdom in the bible that is still true to today, but to me that's just knowledge that you can find by just simply growing old and experiencing the world. The bible is just a document for life. (with stories here and there used to explain the unexplainable) And to justify my simplification "war on god" is the fact that we see it everywhere, especially in america. It is very true that a large portion of people across the globe have a disdain hate for god. It's easier for us to blame a higher being for things we don't like (similar to the example you used making it easier for us to credit something else for creating stuff.) Agnostics don't necessarily hate religion but other religions and todays pop culture society sure does. To me I think we are simply in the process of tearing down society's old foundation and attempting to build up a new one simply because we have a more evidence and a much stronger grasp on mathematics and astronomy. Religion just doesn't make sense anymore so it's natural that we tear it down. But dismissing the idea of a higher order to me is just ignorant, because there are signs out there that prove there is something out there bigger than us. All the systems we have in place today were already here. Humans have the capability to discover methods to create. We are the only beings on this planet with that capability. Obviously in today's world there is still a lot of progress to be made to unify our race and implementing systems that ensure the further development of our species. I could go on about the monetary system and how it's wasting half the worlds resources. There is obviously something much deeper within us. I've personally experienced some sort of contact or presence that I can not explain. There is something about human beings that drives us to do the impossible, there is no other creature like that and all I can ask is why. It's absolutely beautiful what we're capable of. Just take a look at all the religions of our race and try to tell me that there is nothing similar about them at all. There is a universal idea out there that we haven't completely grasped yet and that is what I intend to discover. Agnostics are cool and all but I just can't justify dismissing something we have no capability of understanding yet. Religion has tried but...obviously we haven't succeeded. and because you gave me a quote, I'll give you one as well. "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man." - Albert Einstein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevv Posted February 25, 2015 Report Share Posted February 25, 2015 I trust science and anything empirical. I'll 'believe it when I see it'. There's no proof whatsoever of God(s) so there's no God(s) to challenge. It's not even about challenging religious people like who gives a fuck what they believe? Live and let live. I just see being an athiest as not believing in a God? idk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l8l Posted March 10, 2015 Report Share Posted March 10, 2015 Dogmatic, rigid, materialist over-skepticism is the intellectual virus of our time. ^he explains it way better than I ever could though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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