Ivp

Nice one EOP, looks like your improving with each prep Keep it up

Lmao, it's fairly obvious neither clan has won this "rivalry". In fact, it's pretty embaressing how ridiculously bad this has been to observe, when rivalries usually provide entertainment for me. The overwhelming majority of said rivalry has occurred on status updates and terrible troll topics under fake names on this forum, usually posting nonsensical stuff and containing a lot of o's replaced with 0's (see; l0l, lmfa0, r0fl, etc). Whenever the two clans did actually decide to fight, when a clan won it prompted justin beiberworthy topics of elation over the latest 15 vs 15 or whatever it was such as http://www.sharkbrew.com/community/index.php?/topic/2403-guess-whut-sithlord/ Rivalrys exist to promote growth, inevitably with one clan pulling away and getting momentum and expanding but both clans eventually benefiting from it. The toxicity of the rivalry displays itself most prominently here; both clans have been stagnating and staying exactly where they are for MONTHS now, and let clans such as Supremacy and Zu completely overtake them. Hopefully one clan finally decides to either finish the job and expand beyond the other, or the leaders come to some sort of agreement to stop the rivalry so each clan can focus on growing and catching up with everyone else.

Congratulations

Goodluck to both new clans

Its a two way street I guess, the community would have survived in the form of Fi/EOP/CP regardless of if the LPC thing came to fruition in April, but it certainly went a long way in making it an active and competitive community. Maybe the community would have rebuilt itself from just those three clans. Who knows. Like you said, if it wasn't for the initial 5 or so LPC clans back in April (S, Zu, Trauma, Hate) that spurred other clans to open such as Activation, BV etc and tempt clans to reopen as LPC's such as Zenith, then the community wouldn't be very active now, but it'd still be there in some form. The whole LPC thing was set up to have a scene away from Fi, EOP, CP so that at least a couple of clans could grow and help rebuild the community. Even from the very beginning it was obvious and neccessary that eventually the two scenes would revert to a single one. I'm glad that so many new clans came from the original concept, because it is these clans that are rebuilding the community. However, to say the HPC clans are any different from the LPC clans is pushing it. You mentioned three things; rivals, flame, and future. The newer clans are involved in ddos'ing just as much as EOP/CP/whoever else, and the flame is much worse with the LPC clans than even CP and EOP; it just isn't as developed haha. At least EOP and CP make it funny and worthwhile when they make topics or posts about each other, the extent of the most flames I've seen from LT, DR, Zu, S etc is "l0l ur clan sucks", and status updates on this forum with a lot of "l0l"s and "lmfao"'s (... smh). Regardless, flaming isn't too much of a massive problem, but leaders in all clans need to be more organised and make sure ddos'ing stops in their clans. I don't think its the flaming/ddos'ing that separates the "original" pure clans and the "new era" pure clans anyway, but rather mains. CP, EOP, and Fi seem to have ALOT of mains, that their leaderships simply allow to come or actively pursue in order to come. The new era clans as you call them don't seem to have mains with them at all times, or not from what I can tell. Mains ruin fights, and I really can't believe that people in the clans that DO bring mains lower themselves to using them in order to compete. Its embarrassing and lame. Leaders need to tighten up and stop mains coming to their trips, because it only promotes more mains in a never ending cycle. Finally, the future is looking pretty good. I've always found that around the Christmas period clanning picks up again a little, more people have time to play and be involved in clanning. Right now there is FOE, EOP, Fi, CP, DR, LT, Zu, S, Remedy, Nemesis, BV, Ascent. Thats twelve clans, which have events almost daily, so the community is in a good place comparatively speaking. I've been thinking about a new concept in which a new group of LPC's can have the right circumstances to grow, so hopefully when I get more time I can put it into action and have another 4 or 5 "LPC" clans open, which eventually advances to a state where another couple of clans are PK'ing on weekends and available for preps. Hopefully one day we get to a point where we have 20ish active pure clans and the community becomes even more competitive.

The funnest (despite it being pretty one sided) overall rivalry i've been involved in was probably Epidemic Vs Intense Redemption that lasted on/off from like 2007, and in some ways way into 2012. There was just so many epic moments throughout it all, especially on sites like Pure Warfare and our forums/their forum, rather than in the wilderness. From the more genius plans... To Zo's getting intensely annoyed one trip It was really fun to be a part of. In terms of in game competition, the whole mid sized clan scene during 2009 was awesome, with E/Dv/TLP/DP/EOP all pulling 50-70 people eventually and invariably ending up at the volcanoes every weekend and having huge clusters. Because it wasn't a 1 vs 1 rivalry (Although there were several rivalries involved in the whole thing) there was alot going on with all clans involved and it was generally an exciting thing to be a part of. Entering a short rivalry with Fi after this over #3 was amazing cos it felt as though we'd finally broken the 3 or 4 month long stalemate between E/Dv/TLP/DP/EOP/IR/others and were coming out a much better clan. Epidemic vs MM was short but explosive, and when we finally overtook them for #1 for a month or two it was a glorious time. In NME, the earlier rivalries were quite fun with clans like EF/TH a month or two after we had opened, and it was interesting to use those clans as a measuring pole a few months later when we were fighting clans such as MM, and seeing how far we had come. I have fond memories of having massive clusters in NME too between EOP/CP/NME, but that became a bit played out after a while. Another rivalry I participated in and enjoyed was the CP vs TH one, and that was alot of fun as both clans were very evenly matched. Lots of flaming and blind dislike, but still like nothing that'd really been seen before up until that point in the community. Rivalries are the backbone of this community and from my experience is what forces clans either to grow or be left behind. Good topic

I think Bob/Jib/Prateek in Epidemic was one of the best calling teams I've ever witnessed in action, this was a "greater than the sum of their parts" sort of thing and all three worked very well together. Likewise, Prateek and Poison Karsh worked well together in NME, and Poison/Pepsis/various others did a great job in building NME to a stage that we didn't completely suck in P2P. Sometimes the right collection of people comes together and the synergy is the reason for success rather than any individual effort, which is probably the same for most successful clans.

I enjoyed the early version of The Hatred, ie the one that went from 07 - 08, they were really good at times and seemed to have a solid structure to their clan. The TH vs CP thing was classic, and even though I was a member of CP when CP vs TH were having crazy fights in the BH Craters at perhaps the peak of that rivalry, I still thought TH were a good clan. They did alot in marking the way for new F2P clans springing up and making an impact On the other hand, TH v2 was a mistake on the parts of everyone involved in that when it rolled around in 2011. It wasn't lead in any great capacity by those that originally made TH a success, and the better TH members who were still around in the community had already established themselves as members of clans like Fatality and EOP which they now considered home. A clan reopening can only work if you can get a strong core from the ashes of the previous clan, something which was missing from TH. To make matters worse, they had a sense of superiority because of the clan name that didn't translate in-game as they were fairly bad, but still did alot of flaming and arguing without much to back it up. Needless to say when I think of TH, I think of the classic version rather than the 2011 one.

So this is another private server move, presumably after the old one went down or some other issues. With all these moves and stuff, all of the private server clans could have built a solid base on a REAL game like 07, got the stats they wanted without having their server shut down, and actually felt like they've accomplished something. That'd be another 5 clans on 07 at least to take the total amount closer to 20, on a game that you can actually rely on. I really don't understand the fascination with private servers.

Real trolls are few and far between these days. The majority of people who "troll" in 2014 on runescape related forums are just morons haha. When I see a poor troll i get the same sinking feeling that I'd get if I walked into a club and saw some guy wearing a flame shirt, with them roller-skate shoes that had wheels that could be pulled out. whilst playing with some Pokemon cards. A mixture between disgust and pity. Its really just unoriginal, awkward and causes huge justin beiber for all involved other than the perpetrator, which they fail to see. Anyone still actively making effort to troll on a runescape forum in 2014 is the epitome of 'wannabe'. Its even worse when the trolls (particularly in this forum/community as it is so tight knit) make a separate account to hide behind with names like "roflpwned" or "loln00bs". You can't be a real troll if your uncomfortable with letting people know who you actually are because it just demonstrates in reality you KNOW people will find faults with your real persona. You've already owned yourself by admitting that if you used the name your commonly known by you'd be flamed so bad. Its already admitting defeat before anything has happened. Thats why fake name trolls can't be taken seriously and simply don't work. Theres always been a fine line between trolling and general retardation. Example; that guy wcking179 or something on PW was a good troll because he got a response from people without getting emotionally involved or drawn into huge debates. Simply did his work and got out of there immediately. Zo on the other hand wouldn't be trolling on them forums, he really was that upset and angry at the stuff people said and he wasn't trying to make others annoyed he was simply trying to make himself LESS annoyed. Another mention would have to go to M4n, who managed to get people (Including myself) pretty annoyed at times, but ran the risk of getting too emotional as the topic/flame war progressed. Not to mention the problem with him was that he didnt really have a clue what he was talking about in relation to pure clans. There were tonnes of entertaining trolls back then, but then again that was about 6 years ago and even the most devoted of trolls realize the fad is over. In terms of here and now on THIS forum, there are none really. Jonty's been consistently good at trolling since the PW era, so I'd echo the other people in this topics sentiments and say him. Needless to say, I think even he has realised the tragedy of trying too hard to troll and I've noticed most of his posts these days arn't trolls but simply the truth in regards to clans like CP. The rest of the trolls are just the pure community equivalent of the guy in the flame shirt. Interesting topic though.

It's a good idea in theory, but it seems to have the same pitfalls as the RAW list and stuff in which clans would skirt around the edges of it in order not to lose, not to mention stuff like the Z vs IR fullout years back is pretty much the blueprint as to what happens in full out wars these days, unfortunately. So that category at least would be hard to make work properly. The matched categories are far easier to control and make fair, however. I'd like to see the community come together to formulate a RAW list that works because it CAN be a valuable tool for a community, but thats another discussion entirely i guess. We've been brainstorming a couple ideas about something similar for a new wave of low level clans in the same mold as the thing we did in April (IE, 5ish new clans opening on same date, some combat requirements in place) but obviously learning from the mistakes that were made last time. Currently the consensus is that rather than having separate trip times that segregated the community, we'd set up a weekly fight system on a 8 week schedule in clan wars that'd basically function as guaranteed weekly fights for these clans, on a day that isn't Saturday. Guaranteed fights with a definitive winner and loser is what allows clans to grow, and clan wars is the perfect place for that. Basically, the reason the last batch worked is because the new clans had somewhere to fight outside of the influence of stronger clans in order to give them room to grow, however back then there was no clan wars and now there is. All clans would be matched up on a schedule, with week 1 being a 10 vs 10 maximum (IE, if you pulled 7, your gonna have to fight 7 vs 10, but if the other clan pulls 13 theyd have to sit 3). Week 2 would be 15 vs 15 maximum/Week 3 20 vs 20 maximum/ week 4 25 vs 25 maximum, etc. A weekly progression to promote community growth rather than a monopoly by a single clan. The system we'd be using would be a sort of league table, with 3 points for winning a round, and 1 point for participation. The clans without large memberbases and/or multi clanner low level clans would thus still be able to compete in the early weeks as 10 people isn't too difficult of a task. For the week after, they'd have to recruit another 5 people, the week after that another 5, and so on. These baby steps would invite new people into the community whilst simultaneously bolstering the strength of the clan, and by the end of the 8 week period theoretically there would be another 5+ clans that were taking part in 30 vs 30's at the least. At this point, if it went well, there would be 20+ pure clans for the first time since 2007, and there would be distinctive sets of clan strength that provides easy entry for new clans at any point (IE, brand new low level clans could open and have people to fight, or a brand new mid tier clan could open and still have people to fight) which would go far in helping to expand the community. Using it for LPC clans would be a trial run of sorts and if it worked out well we'd probably organize another 'season' of it for every clan to be involved with.

The entire LPC/MPC//HPC is the most ridiculous thing ever in terms of actually having a label. All it does is promote the mentality that you now see in the community, ie; "omfg we're not fighting them we're a MPC and theyre a HPC!!!!!!!!!!!". In theory its a good idea and the terms do have their uses in discussions, but the problem that now exists is all these new guys taking the labels as gospel and refusing to fight outside their bracket, or even worse be happy with a title such as "#1 LPC" and stuff like that which means absolutely nothing. Before 2007Scape, and before this entire thing got out of hand, mid level pure clans were fighting high level pure clans regularly in order to improve. Now, clans are happy to be mediocre because these "HPC" clans outlevel them a little bit. Clans of the past found ways around that, why can't the current crop of clans? So yeah, we shouldn't be trying to further segregate the various pure clans but rather keep one level playing field and allow a clans power to organically place them into categories rather than impose crappy labels on them; it achieves nothing.

Great job, looks like you and Z had an action packed trip. Just wondering though; if you pulled 40, why did you bother teaming up? You could have fought CP/EOP etc and potentially beaten then on your own, as well as have fights with Zu/CV etc. Oh well, looking forward to seeing more

Good job Zu, clusters looked really fun. Keep it up

Good job, nice to see clans working together to counteract clans crashing. Hopefully this sort of thing continues. Looked like alot of fun too. Keep it up

Originally there were PK'ers like Mahatma etc that made videos and them videos recruited new blood into the pure community. Its no coincidence that Mahatma was one of the first people who made pures "mainstream" and became popular, and MM ended up being the biggest clan in the history of the community. Taking lead from them guys, Hiei, Bonesaw and tonnes of other pures would make pk videos that had astronomical views on Youtube etc, and directly recruited people into the pure world. However, simply watching the video and enjoying pures and even making a pure was only the first step. The real success was making these people join clans. Working well with that was the amount of low level clans that was around. Someone who watched the video and was introduced to the pure world for the first time obviously wouldn't have the stats to join MM/Foe/TLP so they'd join a low level clan, which in turn would introduce them to the pure community so potentially they could go on to different clans. Obviously, in my experience this hardly ever happened and the guy would end up sticking with the low level clan they joined as they grew, totally disregarding their initial desire of joining MM/FOE/TLP, at least till a later date. The problem these days is that Mahatma, Hiei, Kids Ranqe etc were innovators and were doing different stuff in order to attract attention to them and their videos; the more time has progressed however the less innovation takes place and every pure video that comes out is just the same as the previous pure video. If someone can make their videos innovative or popular by some means, it'll definitely impact their clan positively though.

Well, people have their various reasons for opposing the HPC clans coming to their trip times, and everyone is allowed their own opinion, some of which are valid. But realistically, its disappointing for me personally to see the people and clans without a backbone who want their hands held rather than actually doing stuff to make their clan better. They'd rather avoid the HPC clans rather than get better so you can beat them. Where the hell is the sense in that haha. Its the wilderness, and any clan can attack you, will attack you, and SHOULD attack you. Theres nothing you can do about it other than make the power-gap smaller so eventually, you stop dying and start making THEM die. All these clans have to do is remove their mutlicla... I mean, leaks and spies, train up, recruit, and then there you go. The tried and tested formula that clans that succeed have been using for years and years.

The things that bars LPC's from MPC/HPC's is levels. With time, now that the two scenes co-exist, MPC's levels will grow exponentially in order to compete with the HPC's or in order to get the jump on their MPC rivals. LPC clans will be training hard in order to not get left behind by their former rivals who are now contending with HPCs. The average level of the community rises and rises. If an LPC (Low level pure clan, right?) opens in a few months when the current flock of LPC's are MPC's, and the current MPC's are on the cusp of being "HPC" clans, there won't be a problem if they truly are an LPC clan. The newly opened LPC will have an average level of 50 or something, and if they have their run ins at level 10 against other "low level pure clans", no other clan will be able to touch them. Even if they did fight at level 20, this is the wilderness we're talking about not the duel arena, the danger of getting hit will always be there and even then, they can pick off the levels of the MPC clans. If the levels are closer, recruit so you pull more than the MPCs who outlevel you so you can kill them. Effort in growth is frowned upon at the moment, which has left these clans looking in a sorry state. LPC's can't get their hands held as they grow. Adversity is there to be overcome, not avoided. Low level clans in the past such as my own clans Epidemic and NME, clans such as Destructive Pures, clans such as Fearless and TGG were much lower level than the HPCs. Did they moan and complain? Hell no they just relied more on numbers and organisation to negate the levels and managed to overcome clans that VASTLY out leveled them. If any low level clan can pull 10/15 more than their MPC rivals, they are going to beat them. So you can't beat the HPCs, the 8 year old clans, the clans with members who have put hundreds of hours of work into their account. So what? Walk back to edgeville from lumby understanding that all you've lost in 20k, post a topic on your forum explaining how people need to train their accounts and recruit there friends. Clans have overcome these problems in the past, follow their example. Work around the obstacles, don't sit there waiting for them to hit you. Whilst creating this LPC scene originally, the intention was always to have them join the MPC/HPC clans. When communication broke down, this wasn't seen as important by the leaders so they stayed in their current timespots, oblivious to the fact that EOP/Fi/CP etc moving WOULD eventually happen as it has now. I'd like to say if in a few months if we can find another 5 leaders to open LPC clans, we restart to process all over again and create a NEW low level clan scene the same way that we created this one. However, is that really such a good choice? What we collectively created did work, the proof is here. But on the flipside of that, what we were created was a collection of clans afraid of adversity and who want their hand held. "omg these nasty clans r crashing me"; do like every other successful clan has done in the past then and overcome it. Weed out the spies and leaks (HELLO MULTICLANNING!??...), recruit tonnes more people to negate levels and stuff, and work on being better rather than bitching and moaning. Haha. Well that became more rant-ish the more it went on but it needs to be said, but its also all the honest truth. People can't expect to be gifted with a clear path to success without obstacles, they need to work for it.

How is that bad? Multi clanning has been beneficial over the last few months as it allowed clans more numbers in order to establish themselves in the earliest stages of their existence. Its been months since these clans were created and clans SHOULD have established a core memberbase of people dedicated to the clan, rather than mercenarys who attend the trips without any sort of dedication. If a clan can't survive without a few multi clanners from HPC's leaving them, they have wasted there time and effort over the last few months by creating a bad clan that no one cares about, and thus, probably deserve to close anyway. If the clans any good, people will leave their HPC clans for them. If not, they won't. Simple as that haha. Without multiclanners, now these clans can actually all be on the same wavelength with theoretically every member of the clan working towards the same goal of improving the clan. How that can "kill the community", I have no idea. As for the topic, the time doesn't really matter at this stage. Its clear wherever the LPC/MPC clans go, the HPC's will follow. So now would probably be the perfect time to collectively decide the ideal PK trip times and go for them. If the old trip times of HPC clans would be more beneficial, might as well move there because even if you retain the current LPC/MPC trip times, the HPC clans are gonna be there anyway. Gotta say though, the 4EST/9GMT timeslot has always been preferable, which is why clan wars events such as preps and full outs are still held at this time for the most part. The initial reason for the later trip times was to avoid the HPC's, now that that isn't the problem, theres no point staying outside of "mainstream" trip times.

There has been alot of discussion about this in the last couple days and as a result its benefiting the site, which can be seen from the increase in number of visitors and topics and renewed interest in discussion rather than terrible topics that are frankly annoying to see. This forum in particular functions more or less as a micro version of the community at large, so its a step in the right direction and interesting to read also. First things first, this community really isn't as bad as people make out. If you look at the Events Aftermath forum, there are tonnes of preps/minis/pk trips going on on a day to day basis. Far more than main clan events, and far more from the "other" pure scene in Fi/CP/EOP/FOE and the events that they have. This alternative scene really is the most active and competitive clanning scene in ALL of RS right now, which is a good thing considering we collectively built it from the ground up a couple of months ago. What I see, however, is huge potential for growth that is wasted because of questionable decisions on the part of the clan leaders. The majority of clans in this "LPC/MPC" scene seem to be happy to be mediocre pure clans and roll along without doing much to expand their clan, when if they opened their eyes they'd see there could be so much more. What these clans generally don't see is that the LPC scene consists of small preps and PK trips in which the clans pull like 20 or 30, when they COULD be having their clans pull much bigger numbers and having much more fun, be constantly growing, and be constantly evolving and cementing their legacy. Instead, apathy takes its toll and these leaders are afraid of failure; stunting the growth. The building blocks need to be utilized in such a way that promotes the unification of the 4 original pure clans and this new breed of clans. Not only does this give the current MPC clans such as Zenith and Zerg Unit the opportunity to test themselves against clans such as EOP and get on the fast lane to growth, but also helps new clans open. These new clans need a place to open that helps them in their first few weeks and months, and new clans are the main tool that can be used to grow the community. These current LPC/MPC clans are testament to that, if they didn't have the opportunity to flourish months ago we'd currently have only Fi, CP, FOE, and EOP as the pure community. It is ONLY because they had room to grow and develop competitive rivalry's with each other that they have, and as a result the community has expanded 10 fold. What worked for them will work in the future, and its important if any rapid expansion is to occur they need to look at what happened to them and see it needs to be a constant cycle. Zu fighting Nemesis for instance does little for either clan. Zu fighting EOP however, with the competition being far closer with a bit of a push, benefits both clans whilst alleviating the pressure on Nemesis. The ideal position for that growth to occur would be three distinct tiers of clans. Breaking it down; Fi CP FOE EOP Z ZU CV SUP DR LT BV A Nemesis Remedy UF New clans enter here Overlaps are what allow clans to improve, such as Z fighting EOP on weekends or whatever rather than being happy to fight clans such as BV over and over again (Or whatever) without much challenge. If Remedy were to get into a position to fight BV over and over again however, it'd benefit them in the long run. I know there is trepidation about LPC/MPC clans wanting to be involved with CP/Fi/FOE/EOP, but inevitably the two communities are going to collide like it or not, its inevitable. And thats the root of the problem. It'd be awesome if they didn't and all of the above could occur without the influence of EOP/FI/CP/FOE but they will always remain and if thats the case, might as well use them for your own ends. The culture of "my clans the #1 LPC so I don't need to work on my clan" is not benefiting your clan but putting the brakes on, which will turn around and cause problems when clans such as Cp and EOP do decide to come knocking. Sorry about the length, looking forward to discussion.

It would be interesting for the community if the HPC clans closed; but face it the four that exist now most likely never will (I'm dubious whether FOE would close, but even if they did EOP, CP and Fi will always remain I should imagine). The two scenes do need to unify though if the community is going to be in a position to grow at all. Like I've mentioned, the clans of the LPC scene have pretty much reached an apex and its all downhill from here with activity tailing off, more clans closing, and less clans opening, which means nows probably the ideal time to make some changes in anticipation of that. If EOP/CP/Fi/FOE have any sense of self preservation they'll likely start cutting down on multi clanning/start hitting clans in the other scene. A few months back there was the high point of 07 in terms of clans and activity with these clans more or less being around at the same point, give or take a few that didn't overlap; Fi CP FOE EOP SV Hz Z CTRL RD SUP Ascent LP Dignity Trauma Hate Zu Thats alot of clans and the community SHOULD be trying to get back to that sort of level, with Zu/Z/Cv/DR etc taking the place of the closed Hz/Ctrl/Z etc and new low level clans opening to fill the gap that ZU/Z etc have left. If that happened, the community would no longer be seen as 'dying' or 'slumping' and a new twilight-golden age could come about. If all these clans were in a single unified scene with the same PK'ing times, it'd do wonders for morale and activity and the clan world would be much more fun for all participants - thats the only way the pure world can be rebuilt, away from this fractured and segregated community. All clans should disregard the "LPC" title, stop doing ridiculous "95 cap 1 exception" preps or whatever, and just make their clans the best they can, trying to get everyone as high level as possible and trying to recruit more and more people. There is absolutely zero point in caps and stuff at this point now that all clans have outgrown their low level roots, and makes no sense to keep them other than as an excuse to hide behind. It's clear that the LPC clans don't want to make that plunge though, be it cos of not wanting to join the HPC scene, or being apprehensive about failure, or whatever. The HPC scene WILL inevitably come to you though in some form, its the next logical step. I really hope some changes are made amongst the leaders of the LPC clans in an effort to grow beyond what they feel are the limits. Hopefully this does happen and one day we do have a unified scene which promotes growth all around.

I don't understand why you keep talking about the 2 vs 2 idea haha, I mentioned nothing about 2 vs 2's in any of my posts and in fact I outright detest the idea of 2 vs 2 fullouts as they're a hassle, a waste of time, and usually have one clan carrying the other or being let down by a weaker clan, with no pay off. The post I'm talking about is in this thread, #28 http://www.sharkbrew.com/community/index.php?/topic/2319-so-i-understand-that-you-are-all-ranks/?p=30656

It took me two replies, your right. I told you I was involved in the scene, and when you asked for further clarification, I provided it. Now that that's settled, why do you think anything I said in the initial post can't happen? Just curious from the perspective of an LPC clan member who has a concrete affiliation with a clan on a day to day basis.

You asked me if I was involved in the scene and I demonstrated how I was involved in the scene, thats all haha. What has cauliflower irrelevent unjustly 2vs2's got to do with any of that? :s

I've never attended a DR trip, i'm sure you'd be accommodating though Sith if I turned up on Saturday