AARON

bienvenidos a sharkbrew

interesting

this topic was written by a zenith member

Can't really disagree with anything there. Members and ranks being involved in both scenes has definitely proven sour for the progress of the pure scene. This is particular with multiclanning (rev alliance) and members being poached from the pure clans involved (rot alliance). The scene gets a little smaller each time this issue peaks, as it has been a lingering issue since the beginning if 2020.
 
At the end of the day, pure clans are being used as proxies for main clan beef so that no main clans need to take an official loss. Rage get smoked? Rev don't lose for propaganda purposes. Zenith/Apex get smoked? Rot don't lose for propaganda purposes. With this whole ordeal, pure clans lose out 100% of the time. In an ideal situation, yes multiclanning should be minimised, or non existant between the scenes if main clans are going to be anal about it.
 
The ego issue is purely based on rivalries. The rage sided clans will all have clean action with eachother. The zenith sided clans will all have clean action with eachother. Due to not wanting to lose or wanting to grief their rivals with mains and 1 item rag (the no action for 'x' clan mentality), clans crashing aren't trying to form a cluster, they're trying to ruin their rival's action and turn it into the tine consuming ns wars at a 1 click return spot.
 
And as @nawepointed out, avoider mentality is crazy right now. Clans that historically prepped everybody and competed for top matched spots now spend their time avoiding most clans. At the very least, more clans should be fighting regardless of their rivalries. Preps are perfect ego fuellers, they should be gunning for the clan wars wins as well over their rivals (but not go for a 1 and done if they win).
 
One last note, a 1 Defence reset won't change all these cancerous mentalities, but it would be a very nice direction for the health of the scene and bringing in new blood. Generally, more seasoned clanners are the ones fine with defence. If we want lots of new blood, allowing a 1 Defence norm will advertise the scene very well.
 
Edit: sorry, one more thing. Clans should stop wearing team capes on weekends IMO because it enables mains to be very actively involved. Clan cloaks won't stop it, but it'll stop a lot of the cancer and effectiveness of multi logs and click rag on weekends. Supremacy and Fo do this well, and from an observant point of view they don't seem to be involved with bringing mains personally. 

wow, whole lot of productive discussion in this topic, good work everyone, see you on our lvl 70s this weekend!

like everybody else posting on this topic i am also stuck in the past!

Current clan leader mindsets are why the scene isn’t progressing and why it continues going downhill. For the scene to do well, it begins with the clan leaders, they are the voices of the scene and their decisions are what guides us in the direction it heads. @Yazi like that you are atleast bringing attention to this and suggesting something to maybe help the scene but I don’t believe a 1 def scene is going to save pure clanning, not now atleast while things are how they are. For 1 def scene and 25 def scene to be going on at the same time and not get involved within each other is literally impossible. Especially when people are so prideful and can’t let go of things from the past. They can’t man up, forgive and forget. It’ll be over the lightest crap too lmao. Keep tryna find solutions tho and try to work with other leaders. Your voice clearly matters a lot aswell which is why there’s so much attention to this topic. ❤️

If the scene did transition to 1 defence again, I doubt it would go back to 25 defence as quickly as last time, considering the only reason people trained def again was because of clan wars and we know 80% of clans don't do that anymore.
 
Optimistically; yes, a 1-5 defence scene would be very beneficial. Tanks will have less of a foothold against you, and if everyone's 1 defence then low level wildy fights won't be an issue, which also negates overpowered tanks (for he most part). Will a reset ever happen? Who knows, clans like zenith already have access to a memberbase of 1 def accounts, the deciding factor will be if clans can finally let go of the hands if main clans.

Mhmm.
^Yup... And those are just the replies I checked of the first page.
Some people are realistic and so am I. Last time it happened was because of Misfits, Redemption and DMK making the 1 def movement a couple of years ago, the rest followed pretty quickly to the dream. It resulted in the whole pure scene making new accounts and in the end everything ended up being the same. From 1 def people moved over to 20 def and then even 100+ combat because they all think they need it to win a "rivalry". After that they start using mains or ask main clans for help. Even then, you're saying 82cb mains aren't as strong, while they're actually a lot easier to make... Anyways, clan rivalries are going to end up the same way you're dealing with right now in the "HPC" scene.
The only way things will actually start working is if Jagex actually gives some support to the PvP scene (could be def capped worlds like DMM or CWA's or even an official tournament based on def level).
In the end, I love seeing new clans opening up in the game. Gives people a "new" incentive to log into the game and create action. But in the end, it's always the same people, no new blood, everyone has already been part of multiple communities/clans.

You’re trying to push water up the hill..
Jagex is purposely drying out the PVP community because of its toxicity. The only thing that’s keeping some clans going is because they can’t let go of their fictional ego.
It’s not about having fun anymore, not about winning either but about making other clans lose 
 

"20 wheelchair bound retards"

we may as well put their video on our topic

I'm pretty late to this party, but I feel like this discussion is something that probably should've occurred back in 2017/18 from the looks of things since my 6 year hiatus from the scene/game. I've read alot of replies to this topic that seem to have the correct observations, which is that simply put; the reason the mains are a problem in the pure community, is because the pure community is itself the problem.
 
If we go back (and I mean way back) to when the original Pure Community/Warfare became an established scene, the primary and obvious pro to being a pure versus a med was that you had more options for DPS at a lower combat level than any main had at the same +/- 5 combat levels. This meant that en masse, despite the defence advantage of being a med, pure accounts could damage the lower hp meds and kill them faster than the meds could kill the pures. This also translated somewhat equivocally from multi to singles pking, with the most successful examples of this ideology being displayed by Kids Ranqe, Mahatma, Elvemage, etc. This popularity enticed more players to play as pures, especially if you were a dedicated PKer, as that was seen as a true form of risk/reward combat, a prestigious way to play RS if you will. Many pure clans at the time were on average between combat levels 65-75, and it was considered impressive to have a pure over combat 82 whether by 70 attack or by additional prayer/defence. This was a culture not built around min/maxing for competitive advantage, but a culture built around massing as many damage dealers as possible with as little defence as possible.
 
The biggest shift from massing culture to individual quality culture came with the addition of Clan Wars and Bounty Hunter Craters, and the abrupt removal of Free Trade and the Wilderness. Suddenly, no longer were combat 65s fighting 70s and 75s maybe depending on the day, but now in the Craters you have combat 60s trapped in a crater where level 100s can hit them with no penalty or stat rework. Being the stubborn sort that pures are like to be, rather than just make new builds or change their pures into meds that could compete in the craters versus higher levelled meds, the single pking pures opted to just stay pure, but chase that before never embraced stat of Attack, and some also chose to add some extra Prayer and Defence alongside it. Since clans struggled to pull to Clan Wars, this was widely accepted so that as many people as possible could partake in Pure Warfare whilst the Wilderness was still for all intents and purposes dead.
 
Please note that back then, 20 defence was the absolute max def level allowed. It was astonishing to see a pure combat 90+ at this point and time. The clans who craved winning in this Clan Wars only era promoted and pushed for their members to get that higher combat level, because in CWA, all combat levels were hittable by the big boy 95s and 100s, just like the BH Craters. Alot of clans slumped during this time, as most members did not care to train or grind accounts to have maxed 99 stats, they just wanted to pk and war with their mates and have fun. Obviously, in this matched environment, the competitive edge in clans began to evolve and the culture of pure clanning shifted almost completely from massing to individual member quality (especially with the rise of Mini wars and matched preps). Then, the wilderness was brought back in the form of PvP worlds, and pures everywhere rejoiced. Thousands of players returned to the game, and hundreds returned back to pure clanning. New clans were born, all the pent up frustration from the Clan Wars era, the annoyances of bickering rank teams struggling to organize events with other rank teams was partially reduced, because in the Wilderness, there is no timer countdown, and there is no matched cap to run by. The bigger the clan, the better the clan, the more they win. So the pure community exploded, 2009 probably saw some of the biggest pulls in the game's history, in fact I doubt that the scene will ever see the top 4 clans pulling 90+ during winter holiday, the 5-9 clans all pulling 70+, and the lower 10-15 clans all pulling 40-50+. The main community was similarly enjoying huge pulls and due to the amount of competition, had weeks where every day there was a rune war happening in f2p, or a PKRI happening in P2p.
 
During this time however, there was no going back to the days of combat 65s-75s being good enough to compete. Sure, a clan like Epidemic could show up every now and again, overloaded with combat level 70s and low 80s to compete with the top pulling clans. That individual quality though, because Clan Wars was still the only "true" test of a clan's quality, meant that big mithlord accounts were the rave, and every clan wanted their members as high a combat level as possible. "The more you hit, the better use of your strength". "The longer you can pray, the better you can tank and last". These are sentiments the community still holds to this day, and the biggest changes from back then to now, is that back then:

- Main clans had plenty of other main clans to fight against. Despite pure clans being at the same combat range as Zerk/Tank clans (btw capped at cb 110-112 at the time), it was a show of weakness to try and compete with clans that boasted no defence or rune.
- Pure clans on the weekend were not interested in using mains in the wilderness, there were still plenty of level 70s around that couldn't be hit at FOG or Hill Giants by level 95s and 100s, let alone by level 105-112 meds/tanks.
- Defence did not play a roll in defending against Magic attacks. Your magic defence was purely based off of your magic level and the gear you wore. This meant that in a pinch scenario, pures could utilize their actual bridding talent to out DPS meds in P2p using Mage as a reliable source of DPS, alongside a random melee KO or great prayer/positioning.
 
There are other variables than just those 3 mentioned, but even if you compare those 3 points with how things are now and have been since probably 2012 when the Turmoil/Chaotic era was with the game.... I think it's pretty obvious that the pure community is honestly too far from even the proper ideology of "pure" to be capable of reverting truly into a more fun and enjoyable scene. Add to this the fact that main clans are as prone to avoid one another as pure clans, and they number very few when you remove the mercenary venezuelans that are contracted to fight alongside them... Everybody just wants to have every possible advantage for their clan to win before they fight. They want the stats, gear, opts, and intel superiority. With the game balanced the way it is, it's impossible for a pure past combat level 80 to really compete with any med around the 84-88 combat level range, regardless of build or gear. Statistically, a mage/range tank is the most powerful "combat" build in the game now. In both F2p and P2p with snare being allowed in the F2p server.
 
The pure community's only hope to revive/survive without continued reliance and interference by mains is that Jagex firstly alter the game's combat triangle in a manner to where Magic accuracy is again buffed to ignore Defence stat, and also that clan leaders/members get out of the endgame gear rat race that only really benefits CWA since as we've established already, the higher your combat, the less effective your pure. With combat level averages being well over 85 for most clans, it's highly unlikely that a scene reset back to 1-5 def would have any true impact, because people would still chase that combat 101 build with 99attack prayer str hp mage range etc, or have to get that 80 attack for the Elder Maul. Add to this the fact that pures have a annoying habit of multi clanning, whether that's CWA teams, Main clans, Singles teams and what not, the community just simply cannot escape mains, because they themselves are mains.
 
No pure can outmatch a main. Most pures would rather win, even if that means bringing mains, before they would remain pure and just take the L, regardless of it being in CWA or Wild.
No conglomerate of ranks will ever willingly be the first clan to fully return to the roots of pure warfare, setting a hard combat cap, refusing to fight in CWA with endgame gear (elders, toxics, rapiers, ballistas, etc) at the cost of their winrate (shit as everybody's is).
All that you, the community will achieve, is eventually ascending fully into the Med/Zerk/Tank bracket, and from there, the main bracket. Regardless of any scene reset, soon again shall everybody be back in this position, with these accounts and these weird ass proxy wars.
 
Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. None of you will make the change happen, and Jagex certainly don't give a fuck about you to help facilitate that change, so at this point just enjoy the community you're apart of, and when you finally get back to IRL, focus on the good times you had in your memories.

Ngl the other irritant from back in 19/20 was the fact that certain pure clan ranks would be pming rot about 'anti rot' members in their rival's clans just to get them to camp them. That really started integrating main clans into the pure scene

Been a while since I wrote a book on this forum:
 
 
When we originally went 1-5 defence in the beginning of 2017, there were many factors behind not just why it happened but also that circumstances allowed & enforced it. Back then, everyone had two accounts because of LPC & after EOP went full main clan to deal with the 7 clan alliance we were fighting, it was easier for everyone to "reset" to escape this problem. What kept this in check was that I gave an ultimatum that anyone who'd break the new normal would be hit with overwhelming force of adamant and rune (Something that was put on full display against Sv). Nowdays, there's no interest in making new accounts and after seeing Revenant's FEL accounts, 1 defence will not save you from them.
 
I don't see the community dying, we have been through far worse (though, we were younger then). In the second half of 2014, the game was basically dead & there were only 3 clans left open: EOP(30), CP(50), FI(65). What saved us then, was IVP's decision months earlier to bring out a secondary bracket, which resulted in the clanning 'boom' at the end of 2014 with an additional 11 clans being added to the list. Granted Supremacy is the only one of those clans that is still open, the contribution from the influx of people was massive.
 
This will not happen now, instead the "lpc bracket" is an assortment of clans that were left relatively untouched the past 2 years and protected, in part, from larger clans by a high level of politicking on my end - along with threats. I can see F2P going away for a little while, in the same way as we did for P2P in 2014, where we did F2P Saturday & Sunday leaving P2P entirely abandoned to adapt to our needs. A lot of the "main problem" is just kids double logging, something very difficult to do in P2P.
 
 
 
As for the main clan situation:
 
The main clans themselves are no problem, most of us can out-main the main clans on our own. This is entirely down to pure clans trying to find allies in the main community and using main clans to try and make their clan look relevant again (fo/zenith). As a result, this problem ends with the closure of Zenith and depending on whether or not they aid EZ against OG ever again, that may very well come sooner than later.

The most amusing part of this issue is that every clan has the same goal in mind, but rivalries and ego stop any progress. One clan stops the mains, their rival continues and stomps them etc. Mains are killing the community and making a lot of clans into a walmart version of eop
 
When rage were getting camped by rot, their rivals who 'didnt support mains' would laugh and also team on them with the main clans, leading to the evident relations with other main clans which led to this main clan proxy war with pure clans. I know rage only have mains etc now for retaliation to the main clans and those who help the main clans, since they openly drop the mains for nuetral fights.
 
You even have fo having a shared fc with rot and co on their own anni most recently. After that fiasco, they've seemingly dropped the mains cold turkey not because it's for the best, but because they were annihilated for their poor choice. Then you've got apex/zenith who have involved themselves with the main clans for almost a year. I'm not too sure on the other clans that have actual organized alliances, but I know most clans also have their own arsenal of mains because if these issues.
 
 
Clans need to stop their cringe alliances with the main world because all it ends up doing is brings the scenes together and turns the pure scene into the med scene. God forbid fo at the moment are setting the ideal example of dropping it cold (albeit as a response to their anniversary disaster). Clans need to follow that and keep it pure.
 
Text waaaaaaaaall

5v5 soul wars

looked fun 🤝

Was a pleasure leading 1 last time.
Good to smash VR again and sad to see DF aint got the balls to mass for us.
 

EoS next. 

gz

our team cape: 32
your team cape: 30
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEwaZkfrlzc#t=249
 
4:09